[專題講座] 羅晟文 x Jimmy Beunardeau 【白熊計劃 x Wild-Life】白黑雙熊攝影師首度見面會

對談:羅晟文 x Jimmy Beunardeau x 劉偉蘋
主辦:台灣黑熊保育協會、夢想臺灣黑熊藝術館、挺挺動物應援團
報導:
延伸閱讀:

 



Q1:我想知道你們是怎麼開始去拍攝動物?又,在實踐的過程中,曾遇過什麼樣的阻礙,讓你們很難執行?或者又有什麼有趣的事情?

Jimmy:The very first day when I arrive…because I wanted to make a photo about white bear. Because she has a project. They are very shy, so it is very difficult to make photographs. But I’ll do it. And after that…I forget any difficulty because many people help me a lot to make these condition, to make this project. So I cannot say difficulty. 

偉蘋:簡單講就是,Jimmy就講說最早他一開始敲門的是,他希望跟著美秀老師去拍野生的(動物),你知道所有愛動物的人其實我們都希望看到的是牠野生環境的樣態,所以本來那是Jimmy的希望,跟著美秀老師拍野生的台灣黑熊。所以他最早的挫折感,或是說一開始的阻礙,大概是他沒有辦法拍野生的黑熊,而是必須要去到屏科大。這也不是他全然的阻礙啦,只是說他沒有拍到他一開始設定的,想要的、野生的那個狀態。但是Jimmy講說他還是希望他可以做到這件事情。那至於其他的,Jimmy說台灣人很善良,我們台灣人很熱情,所以幫助他很多,所以他並沒有遇到太多其他的阻礙。

然後我覺得這個Story在晟文身上,晟文就比較辛苦,晟文到世界各地拍。我印象很深,晟文有一次在分享的時候,我記得你講說你看到的白熊,就是北極熊,吃的比你都好,對不對?晟文在做project的時候,其實還蠻辛苦的,晟文可以聊一下。


晟文:For the difficulty for me, the first thing is the finance. Because the finance obviously the project is kind of expensive. Initially I don’t know how much money I will actually spend. I have no idea to execute the project. So at that time in 2014, I was going to do a crowd-funding for the project. But later I realized that it was impossible because everybody think that this is a joke, nobody can do this. So the crowd-funding failed. And I realized that until I really make something, nobody will take me seriously. So I really have to take the first step to make the project. 2014 is the only time that I can do this because several of my friends already lived in Europe, and I can travel to Europe and lived in their locations, lived in their houses, and do the project, and figured it out the way to do it financially visible.

偉蘋:所以在2014年的時候,晟文開始這個計畫,當然最困難的就是沒有經費。所以晟文一開始有做過群眾募資,但是群眾募資後來失敗了,原因很簡單,就是很多人都會懷疑這件事情根本不可能會成真。那我覺得剛剛晟文講到了一個很關鍵的,就是如果你想要做什麼,你可能必須要先去做,你必須要做到讓人家看到,否則你很難要求……把你的想法丟出來要人家支持,要人家拿錢去支持一個看不到你在做什麼的一個想法。然後2014年是剛好晟文可以撥得出時間處理的時候,所以他剛開始能做的方法就是……因為他在歐洲已經有一些朋友了,他就盡量去找這些歐洲的朋友,去住在他們那邊,想辦法用最少的經費執行(計畫)。

晟文:And they are optimistic at first because I have no experience of how to do this project or to travel in a financially sustainable way. So my first stop is to move to France. At that time I was lived in Paris and I travel to Mulhouse by high-speed rail train. It’s super expensive. And I spent way too much money on first stop and I was totally scared. And later I developed a way to do it in most economical way. Of course for me to do the project, to realize the project is not all about the money. It’s all about balance of three things: it’s money, time and my physical condition. The three elements have to work together in order to make a project… in order to realize the project.

So after the first stop, I began to make a really systematic project on how to travel and travel without going back on forth because that saved at least half the money. And It’s has to be done in very short of period of time. For example I have to go to… maybe 13 locations in 21 days. That’s how I did. The less time I spent, the less money I spent actually. And all I eat… mostly apples and bread. That controlled the food budget. Georny mentioned that sometimes bears also eat apples and bread, and they actually have more. Actually they don’t even want to eat. And apples and bread just float on water or something. So that’s a little part of how I made a row project. After I made the project in Europe, I receive more help from a lot of friends and people who are interested including Georny. Then help naturally come for the project. And now it’s a more sustainable project. So like you just said, if you take the first step, even for me it’s very scary--of course the first step is always scary-- ,but we have to take it and it will develop and help. And the help will all come.

偉蘋:剛才晟文提到的就是三個部分是他在執行的時候必須掌握的:經費、時間以及他的體力。要踏出第一步其實是非常、非常驚恐,而且一開始的第一站花了他很多錢,但是之後他就慢慢找到了一個(方法)。應該說譬如他要在21天去13個動物園,因為經費有限,所以要用最短的時間去最多的地方,才能夠省下最多的錢。因為每天對晟文來說,多多少少都一定會有經費要支出、要控管,那等於說晟文用一種很克難的方式去開啟(這個計畫)。

快速的經驗累積就讓他去找到一個(方法),譬如說要從A點到B點,你怎麼樣去設計你的行程、不要繞,或者是不要坐車過去又坐車回來,因為歐洲的交通費非常、非常高。然後晟文大部分的時間就只能吃蘋果跟麵包,然後當他去到動物園的時候,蘋果跟麵包也是北極熊會吃的食物,但是有時候北極熊可能食物量很豐富,所以他就會看到北極熊的池裡或是地上有牠們吃剩下,或是懶得吃的蘋果跟麵包,那是晟文的主食,所以大概有點小辛酸。但是確實也是晟文開始去跑一些動物園之後,慢慢的就會開始遇到不同的人,因為你的事情做出來了,像當時我跟晟文認識,也是因為我覺得他實在是太厲害了,很認同他做的事情。那慢慢的,可能晟文就會遇到一些,不管是新的朋友或是新的資源,支持著這個計畫繼續做下去,那晟文三個月前也才去了日本,大概是這樣。

Q2:想請晟文與大家分享現在進行中的日本計畫內容

晟文:So you might wonder why Japan is a part (of the project). Because Japan is quite crazy about the polar bears actually. There’re 20 locations in Japan along which has polar bears, and there are roughly forty polar bears in Japan.

And last December I went to 12 locations. Before I did this project in Japan, I did a little research online. I found that the cuteness is the key factor for the collection of zoos in Japan. And in Japan you can see a lot of mascots or very cute puppies. So the two cutest animals for Japanese people, I think is the giant panda and the polar bear. Giant panda is more cute for Japanese people. For example, in the gift shop, there’s an entire shelf for panda toys. And it’s not the same toys… not the same panda. But there’s a pink panda baby, and a one-day-old pink panda. Then it grows, and it will be larger. And semi-pink. So it all different life stages of pandas, they make one toy for each life stage. And everyone will select which one they want. So that’s how things kind of work in Japan. Of course like Jimmy said, when people see the polar bear in Japan, everyone said two words: Kawaii(可愛い)and Sugoi(すごい). It means cute and incredible. From 5 years old to 90 years old, they speak these words. Five years people said “Kawaii, kawaii”. They are totally absorbed by the animals.

Jimmy: But you think it is different on our culture?
晟文:I think it is a little bit different.
偉蘋:Do you know the culture of “kawaii” how it comes? Because I have learned before. The culture of “kawaii” actually is because the in Japan. I don’t remember how many years ago, but certainly maybe a few decades ago. A group of young people, they tried to use the kawaii culture to against the war. Suddenly Japan become… you know everything about kawaii. Actually there was a starting point.

偉蘋:因為剛才晟文提到的是說,他們在之前去日本拍攝北極熊,然後他就說在日本很特別的就是他們的「可愛文化」。包含北極熊的圈養,你會看到就是動物園的商店比台灣還誇張。貓熊在成長的過程,是每一個過程中,都有不同的玩偶代表那個過程,所以從小孩開始,就會很嚮往擁有它,他們就覺得「哇!好可愛喔!可愛い」或者是incredible、很棒。那我是因為今年有可能要協助(台灣黑熊保育)協會做「亞洲黑熊論壇」,然後我的英文因為退步很多,所以我我去地球村上英文,我才學到「可愛文化」這件事情。
其實「可愛文化」是有文化背景的,是當年日本年輕人,為了反戰爭,以及反對主流文化,所以他們創造一個「可愛文化」,他們當初也沒有想到有一天「可愛文化」變成現在的主流文化。這個就還蠻特別的、關於日本的部分。

晟文:I think in other countries, of course there is level of “kawaii” in every country. But not as pronounce I experienced in Japan. In other countries, I think a lot of people are looking at the species…… For example, they look at the polar bears, they look at the really exotic and marvelous species, and something of the species that is attracting people. Or the fearlessness or the strength. So each country… I think is a little bit different. And how they display them also tells the story as well.

Q3:因為剛剛你們有提到kawaii,那在進行保育工作中,「讓大眾覺得某個物種很可愛」讓大眾覺得某個物種很可愛」是不是一件很重要的事?

Jimmy:I think that’s right. Pandas look very “kawaii”. That’s why a lot of money with panda. “Kawaii”…it’s a cute baby. If it is a but it also any animals I think it’s very “kawaii”.
晟文:It’s very difficult I think. So now there is an execution. Maybe what you care is preservation for ugly animals. Their logo is a blobfish (水滴魚). You know that Blobfish is like a jelly…Like this big and… actually it’s quite cute. And it’s the most ugly animal in the world and it’s endangered. They are really trying to focus on the ugly animals species because this is super difficult. Imagine kind of some ugly insects are going extinct and it is super difficult to conserve. If these insects are super ugly, and it is very difficult to conserve. You need to do something to intervene.

Jimmy: (It’s normal that) They love cute and beautiful thing for many people and children. I think cute could be the key. Because it can attract people more easy maybe to anyone.

偉蘋:因為剛剛提到可愛文化,所以我就問他們說,那有些動物如果不可愛,怎麼辦?其實在保育上面來講,好像可愛動物才值得保育,所以Jimmy就提到,攝影就變成是一個很好的工具。剛剛Jimmy也提到一個我覺得很好的點,其實可不可愛本身就是一種主觀意識,所以我剛剛提到我朋友說做蝙蝠(保育)很辛苦,可是對Jimmy來講,他可能就覺得其實蝙蝠也很可愛。

另外晟文講一個很有趣,我沒有聽過這個,我回去google一下,就是「醜陋動物保育中心」,在英國有專門針對醜陋動物進行保育。剛剛晟文有提到你的啟蒙老師其實是黃宗慧老師,那宗慧老師和宗潔老師是一對姊妹,他們在動物倫理上面做了很多很多的努力,那曾經──我忘記是宗慧老師還是宗潔老師說,講了一句對我來講啟發很多的話,他說「做動物保護推廣,一定不能夠不耍可愛」,他就說「不能不耍喔!必須要耍喔!」他說「一定要耍萌才能把人帶進來」。但是他後面講了更關鍵的一句,「但是耍萌絕對不夠」。這是提醒我們做動物保護的人,我們可能要讓他們漂亮的一面、可愛的一面,或者是就算醜陋,也要把他們轉換成漂亮,或者是吸引人,可是光是這樣的轉換可能還不夠,關鍵還是在後面,就像Jimmy拍的動物,Jimmy他不是只是拍攝,他回去還花了很多的精神去推動、去報導台灣黑熊的故事,所以其實背後可能有更多的努力,或者是後面的故事必須要讓大家看到,但是外型不得不說,是影響大家進入的,這時候兩位攝影師的工作就非常、非常的重要。


Q4:想請Jimmy聊聊過去曾做過的馬戲團終止請願行動。
Jimmy:It’s a photograph project, and to make more a citizen project. Because in France’s circuses, they use animals. So such a pity. And government of Macron doesn’t care at all about animal cares. Even you care. So I think the circuses will still exist as long as Macron is president. So maybe after all we get this circus are the law(00:40). Because there were dancing bears, circus…middle age. So we can act where are city or villages. So we can put our mayor to make like a law just for the village. So I try on my own to make petition online. And 3,000 people sign the petition. (偉蘋:3,000 people?) yeah. 3,000 people to ban circus in this district. It’s more people live in this district. So I met my mayor, and they didn’t want to listen to me. And they don’t care about the petition. But it post in all newspapers… local newspaper. So I think I successd because we talk about this. So it’s the beginning. And more and more cities are thanks to this petitions, they are banning circus.

(偉蘋:They are discussing … more and more discussion.)

偉蘋:因為之前在屏科大裡面,那邊的動物有些是早期馬戲團留下來的,大家應該知道嘛,就是Jimmy有拍攝到一些,像是名為鮭魚的棕熊,還有好幾個,還有老虎跳跳,都是馬戲團遺留下來的。但是那時候Jimmy就有跟我提到說,就是在台灣其實動物保護在某些地方甚至是比法國還要先進的,因為在台灣,我們是不允許有馬戲團表演的,可是在法國反而可以,所以對Jimmy來說,他會覺得說那幾乎是一個中世紀的事情了,他們現在還有dancing bear──跳舞的熊,就是訓練熊表演跳舞以及馬戲團。
那Jimmy就很勇敢地利用類似市民信箱,或是現在台灣也有一個「公共政策網路參與平臺」──台灣好像是要超過五千人,你才有機會把你的petition送出去──那他那時候就是發起,希望禁絕他所屬的城市不能夠再有馬戲團表演。然後當時他是在把這個提案丟到網路上的時候,就有超過三千人附議,基本上不只是當地人,還有一些其他鄉鎮的人,所以也讓Jimmy有機會真的去見到他們的市長。但是,那個市長完全不鳥Jimmy,完全不在意他,但是即便是這樣,Jimmy基本上還是成功的,為什麼?因為Jimmy成功的讓當地人開始討論「馬戲團是不是應該被禁止」的事情,而且不只他所屬的城市,是他影響到其他城市、其他的人,也開始讓馬戲團在法國有更多討論,甚至影響到其他人也提出相同的倡議。所以就Jimmy來說,雖然市長……其實Jimmy很生氣啦,就是市長的態度讓Jimmy很不高興,但是Jimmy做的這件事情有發揮到他的影響力,那我覺得是不是給Jimmy一個掌聲?

Q5:晟文,我們對於你在荷蘭做乳牛的計畫很有興趣,可以請你分享一下內容嗎?

晟文: So Georny ask me about the project about… I did in Netherlands. So when I study in Netherlands …about 4 years ago. And at that time I was quite surprise when I arrive, I see a lot of cows eating grass on the farm which is something that I’ve never seen in Taiwan. Because all the cows are living in rolls in Taiwan, because of the temperature condition. So I was quite surprise that the cows kind of live outdoors at these four years. In Netherlands I was later even more surprise that there is a certificate logo on the milk bottles that certify the cows produce this milk. (The cows) lives outdoors (can produce) at least 120 liters every year. So that’s a … for me is very surprise because in Taiwan, all the logos on the milk carton is about food safety and about the quality, and the condition and the price. There’s no such logo in the Netherlands actually. But there’s a logo about cows in degrease in the outside. So I was kind of surprise and the Dutch people are obviously quite proud of it because that’s kind of national identity. That’s the national animal for the Netherlands. Especially we even have the milk powder. The milk in Fryslân is a region in the Netherlands. So it’s a part of national animal.
(Jimmy: Holstein, it’s a species of cow.)

晟文:Holstein Friesland yeah. That’s a type of cow. Actually introduce to Taiwan, I think during the colonialization period of Dutch Taiwan … introduce the black and white cow into Taiwan. So it’s a national animal.

偉蘋:晟文四年前去荷蘭念書,然後他到那邊非常驚訝地發現,很多母牛都是在外面吃草的,那在台灣基本上是很少(見到),目前台灣的方式基本上都是在室內,比較沒有放養的狀況,晟文那時候就有注意到這個,可能台灣因為天候的關係,就是我們的飼養方式跟荷蘭不一樣。另外,晟文還發現了另外一個地方──我覺得這個事情真的還蠻有趣的,也不能說有趣,而是很棒就是了──晟文注意到每一個牛奶上面有一個認證標章,這個認證標章就是,你牛奶的來源的乳牛是在戶外,一年365天只要有1/3,約120天,在戶外生活的狀態下,你就可以得到那個認證。這跟晟文之前在台灣生活,看到的也有很多認證標章,只是我們的認證標章可能都是食品安全、食品衛生等,幾乎大概都是保護人的,應該就保護食品來源。那以這個來講,感覺像在從動物思考,動物要有120天是要在戶外放養的狀態,所以這個開始引發晟文對這件事情的了解、興趣與關注。

晟文:The problem is that I found most of the Dutch people they trust the certificate and the government very much. They … yes it’s true that they have the high standard food safety, but we know that in Taiwan, people also use to trust the certificate and the government. But something happened in food safety and the trust never regain after that event. But the Dutch people they have never experience that before. So they don’t know that there’s a potential issue if you really trust the certificate and the government without making questions, without being curious.

偉蘋:所以晟文接下來可能要討論的就是……因為在荷蘭大家基本上對政府的認證是百分之百信任的就是了,他不會去提出懷疑。那台灣其實以前我們也許也是這樣,但是就是因為台灣曾經發生過非常嚴重的食安問題,所以我們現在其實對一些政府的認證標章,我們會保持一個懷疑的態度。可是在荷蘭,人民其實非常相信政府是用很高的標準(去評鑑),以及能夠拿到標準,人民其實會去相信這個認證標章的。

晟文:So at that time I don’t know what to do, but the only thing I can do is to actually be a curious consumer as see will happen. Because I don’t want to make a documentary about it. Because there are so many documentary about their industry. So I want to do something different. I don’t know what. So I ask questions to the people who are responsible for this certificate. At first, they are quite friendly and tell me how this work and how everything work. But later, I ask them a question that is this certificate says all the cows are outside for 120 days per year? Is this certificate… does this verification process has a scientific back ground? I mean how can you know that all the cows are outside for 120 days almost all the farms in Netherlands? How was that done? How is that even possible to test this process scientifically? And the two companies responsible for making this certificate, they kick my questions. The company A want me to ask company B. And the company B decided that they want to ask company A. So they kick me around. I said okay fine. I ask the second question: is there a way for me to join one of your inspectors to see how it works, how it communicated with farmers? And again they kick my questions. The company A want me to ask company B. They kicked me around again. When I said okay. So I send one e-mail to both company at the same time. I said that you’re asking me to communicate to each other. So now here I am. What should I do? And I never got any e-mail.

偉蘋:所以晟文就開始對這個標章產生了──他覺得他要做一個好奇心強烈的消費者,所以他就開始問。於是他就直接針對提供標章的公司,那在荷蘭是兩家公司,他就去提問題。第一個問題就是:請問一下你們是怎麼執行的?就是有任何科學化的方式──畢竟一隻牛在外面要120天才能得到認證──那你們怎麼知道哪些牛在外面真的有滿120天?總要有個科學方法。他就去問,然後A公司就叫他去問B公司,B公司就叫他去問A公司,結果就等不到答案。
然後晟文就丟了第二個更犀利的問題,我可不可以直接參加你們的查證工作?因為認證標章就是要有認證過程嘛,所以第一個你們怎麼做認證的?你們不跟我講,那我可不可以有機會參與認證工作,就是參與你們去認證的過程?然後一樣就是,兩間公司推來推去,然後晟文也很積極的就是發一個E-mail,就說好阿,現在我們三方都在,你們都叫我去問對方,那我同時e-mail給你們,然後就兩家公司就都不理他。

晟文:So I thought this is a bad end. But after a few days, When I was on the train. I realize that this is actually a math problem. That I mean 120 days… if you want to check 120 days is like testing the quality assurance … is like testing 120 apples. How many apples or how many days will you have to sample in order to have a statistically confidence level let this farm is obeying what the certificate says. So this became a statistic problem. And luckily the math is well establish in quality assurance. So I can calculate whether the certificate is scientifically now by myself. So I did calculation because there are 20,000 farms in Netherlands. In comparison… I mean there are 20,000 farms for that company alone. In comparison the largest producer in Taiwan which is 味全, they have about 500 farms. So it’s 40 times besides of 味全 conveying in Netherlands… besides about 40 times. And according to my calculation you need about 1,000 inspectors working for 24 hours per day in order to make that value scientifically possible. But that is obviously not the case. So the certificate after all is not really scientific.

偉蘋:所以就是在晟文他的計算之下,發覺如果以荷蘭是20,000個農場,只是其中一家認證公司,要去查核兩萬家農場,如果真的要去做這件事情,他們必須要用一千位稽查人員連續工作一年,不間斷地工作。也就是說,實際上我們看統計,他是絕對不可能達成的,那一定程度上,我們就可以知道那份認證,它可能並沒有真的建立在有科學的稽查之上,基本上是不可能成立的。

晟文:So later I put up with the camera app concept that a consumer can use the camera app to verify when they pass to a farm. If they know the schedule of the farm, they can actually use the camera app to report whether the farm is obeying the certificate. So the citizens are … or the consumers can actually play a role with photography. Actually photography for me is not a … is not really just a tool for myself, but maybe it’s also a tool for everyone because now almost everyone has a camera phone. Everyone has a camera. So the power of tongue maybe it can be deliver to the audience to the consumer. And in that case if the consumer uses this camera app to do the verification, in my calculation you need 1% of the Dutch population to do the report once per year. Then the math is okay for the certificate.

偉蘋:So you actually develop an app?
晟文:I made a dummy app because to develop it you need the schedule of all the farmers which something that the farmers couldn’t agree the moment. But for me, this is a concept that I wish to keep developing. But I have to say one thing that this app should not be like a police app. It’s not like intending to do… . I mean it not an app for citizens to become a citizen police. I mean it not like a reporting the farmers or something. It should also… it also has a function to report good behavior of the farmers as well. And the most important thing is not proof that the farmers do bad thing. It’s a warn actually. Because it’s maybe raining. So the cows are inside. It’s so totally natural to go against the schedule sometimes. But it kind of like a guide for the inspector to see that this farm get multiple report. Maybe that there is a problem there and they can … they will know where to look in more efficient way. I want to do this.

Jimmy:The inspectors out there are basic a company or basic a government?

晟文:For… At the time I was doing the project, it was hired by both the company and independent institution. So there’s a level of self-inspection as well. The company can do inspection of it own farm as well and the inspecting company can also do it. Because they do it like a joint effort to make this possible. But now the Dutch government, they are trying to make it into law. The cows should be outside at least 120 days per year. So the development of the industry is actually going faster than my project. So if this certificate is turning from the certificate into a law … into a law, then you must have scientifically to proof it. Otherwise the law doesn’t work.

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